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Personio - Investments & Connectivity - 2026-01-28

Metadata

  • Date: 2026-01-28
  • Company: Personio
  • External Participants: Tom Thorn (Treasury)
  • Palm Participants: Emma, Jennifer, Giannis, Gurjit
  • Type: Customer Call
  • Domain Areas: Investments & Debt, Connectivity, Cash Forecasting, Cash Visibility, Forecast Performance, Scenario Planning
  • Recording: https://tldv.io/app/meetings/6979de78015a930013ec5302

Summary

Context

Weekly sync with Personio. Emma joined to demo the new Investments UI design and gather feedback. Discussion also covered bank connectivity strategy and payroll forecast accuracy issues.

Key Discussion Points

  • Demo of new forecast overview page with investments split (cash vs investments visualization)
  • Investment types: money market funds vs time deposits, maturity profiles
  • Liquidity tagging concept (T+0 liquidity vs locked investments)
  • Scenario planning for investment decisions
  • Bank connectivity roadmap: BlackRock priority, JPMorgan integration in progress
  • Payroll forecast accuracy issues on German entity (5743)

Pain Points

  • Cannot see investments alongside cash in a unified view
  • Making overly conservative investment decisions due to lack of forward visibility
  • BlackRock money market fund data not integrated (significant movements not visible)
  • Payroll forecasts showing incorrect weekly patterns instead of monthly
  • Non-integrated bank accounts (Deutsche Bank, Credit Suisse) require manual processes

Feature Requests & Needs

  • Split investments by type in header KPIs (money market vs term deposits)
  • Show maturity profile of investments in forecast chart
  • Ability to tag investments by liquidity (T+0 vs locked)
  • Attach trade tickets/documents to investment records
  • Scenario planning for investment decisions
  • Investment detail view with bank, rate, maturity, currency

Jobs & Desired Outcomes

Job: Make informed investment decisions with confidence about cash availability

Desired Outcomes: - Minimize the uncertainty when deciding investment duration - Increase the visibility of when invested cash becomes available - Reduce the frequency of overly conservative investment decisions due to lack of data - Minimize the time spent manually tracking investment maturities

Job: Achieve complete cash visibility across all accounts and investment vehicles

Desired Outcomes: - Minimize the number of accounts not reflected in the system - Reduce the delay between investment transactions and system visibility - Increase the accuracy of global cash reporting (1:1 with Workday)

Domain Insights

  • Money market funds at Personio are primary investment vehicle (via BlackRock)
  • Term deposits used less frequently but have specific maturity tracking needs
  • Trade confirms sent via email from BlackRock for each redemption/investment
  • JPMorgan integration to Workday expected by March
  • Deutsche Bank and Credit Suisse accounts may be rationalized (low activity)
  • Payroll forecasting complicated by social security/healthcare payments going out weekly vs salary monthly

Action Items

  • [ ] Tom to send BlackRock trade confirmation examples
  • [ ] Palm to explore ingesting BlackRock trade confirms via email
  • [ ] Investigate payroll forecast accuracy on 5743 entity (salary/tax showing weekly instead of monthly)
  • [ ] Tom continuing recategorization work in system

Notable Quotes

"This essentially helps maybe in the future... actually, you know what? We shouldn't be investing for one month. Or maybe money market funds aren't the preferred investment. We can say, no, we should invest two or three months because we're comfortable with how much cash we're going to have. This is really that unlocks that decision." - Tom Thorn

"That's one of the selling points of the tool, you know, for me internally is that it takes those kind of decisions from a bit of guesswork and making overly conservative decisions to actually being able to make more informed decisions with comfort and confidence." - Tom Thorn

Full Transcript

Them: Hey, emma.
Me: Hey. Tom.
Them: How's it going?
Me: Good. Thank you. I saw your message. On.
Them: Yeah, sorry for the delay on that one. Taking a little bit of time to get around to looking at that. But really simple table, unlike only a few data points, but yeah, let me know your thoughts. Happy to catch up on that.
Me: This is super cool. My immediate thoughts are like, well, what would a mapping tidal categories look like? And then we could just plot something out for you.
Them: Yeah, okay. That would be great. I would say it only really needs to sit. Oh, hey, Gujit got the whole team Only really needs to sit on the. In the reporting side, I'd say. Or that would be the request of these. We can catch up on that one when you've had a chance to look at it.
Me: 100% really cool. So.
Them: I've got the full delegation in front of me.
Me: Rry. To you.
Them: Tom hasn't seen me in, like, three days. Yeah, why not? Why not? Why not make an appearance? So while we have absolutely loads of stuff to talk about today, Shall we start off with the investment? Emma has joined today because we have a new investment page coming in overdog photos before, so we would love to share with you the initial design and also learn a bit about how you manage your investment and what data you have already that we can start thinking about how to plug in and if you don't track it. That's okay. We can help with that. Too, but yeah, also t.
Me: Yes. Thank you. Thank you. Me and Tom has spoken about investments in the past, and I think this should be taking most of your needs into account. We will be able to support additional investment types as well. But this is what I'm going to show you is a a bit of a sneak peek into how the new forecast overview page will look very soon. And then we're also going to look at, well, in that new forecast overview page, adding investments in. And what I would love to know is just your initial impression of that as kind of your cash and cash equivalents. Current and forecasted. Just starting point and what would be helpful for you to see going from that overview into something more granular. So I'm going to start with actually just showing you a static design. And I think we might not have time to dig too much deeper than this. But to explain. What I mean is your forecast overview is going to become way more focused on your current cash position, like your current biases across entities, cash pools, currencies, regions and countries. So you'll be given filters on this page. It will be focused on that and then your forward looking like basically your forecasts so that we're going to double down on that. Use case here for investments. What we're thinking about is having your current balance being displayed as a split between cash and investments. So you get that initial very just. Hopefully a good understanding of where your cash sits. And we can talk about what to show in these KPI cards here. This is just a natural extension of what we're doing currently. You'll see in your chart, actually your total balance. But how much of it is made up of investment and how much of it is made up of cash. Any thoughts so far?
Them: No, I think that makes. I think having it spit out already makes a lot of sense. I guess maybe just on that top banner. What I don't know if there would be, if you have investments there, maybe even just from a real clear visual first look would be like, what type of investment? If there's like a sub, sub division to say money market fund investments and that spit out like, like that term deposits. At the moment, all of our investments are pretty much money market funds. But just thinking, if you're holding a lot of cash in a lot of different places, to have it split out and that might. That way, might, might just as a quick, quick check. And then in terms of the table. Yeah, the graph as well. Super helpful. That's when I'm looking at my liquidity and, like, headroom, I guess. Is kind of the graph, we would call it. That's. That's really the one is to say, actually, that split. Is, is what we need to see and also the maturity profile of those investments. Becomes really important because it's all well and good saying we have this. This total balance, but actually, when is that available for me is like, is. Is the big one. I guess. Just quick question. We're seeing on the cash side, on the forecast that you're seeing your cash decrease over time, but then you'll see the investments increase. I guess that's just forecasting that you're investing excess cash.
Me: Yes. This is us being, you know, this is how we would love for it to look for a lot of our customers. Right. But over time, their invested cash would go up.
Them: Yeah.
Me: So point of view 100%.
Them: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
Me: And then.
Them: Maybe on that, I guess. Maybe a personal preference. But in terms of investments. Yeah, I would maybe think. Personally, I would maybe think a bit differently. Is like you. You have this much available cash. And then maybe you build in, like a decision. Like when you hit this limit, then you will invest. What I think, again, as I've discussed previously, that I'd rather not see forecasted items for investments because mine are quite sporadic. They're not always happening around the same time within the month or within. Like, they're not following a similar pattern. So we've actually removed those from the forecast generator. That makes sense.
Me: So how we're thinking about forecasting investments for now would be pretty naive. Let's say money market funds. It would be your existing, like, whatever your current value is of that, just like. Added to the future and it would only update whenever I use updates. The value.
Them: Okay?
Me: That would be the first star, but. Forecasting the actual value of the investment itself.
Them: Yeah. Yeah, makes sense.
Me: Yeah. Good. Yeah.
Them: Yeah, I was going to say. So, like, hypothetically, if you're looking at a forecasted investment, it's actually a straight line because it's just whatever your money market account is. I think the part that we can forecast is going to be if you have time deposits that mature is potentially, you see the dip at some point in the future of a time deposit now running into operations until you said, no, no, I'm going to roll it over. Let's keep it going.
Me: Yeah. And you see that in the forecast. You'd see, like, the drop and like the. Yeah, the increase in cash, essentially.
Them: You see it drop off? And then I guess, well, I get the. The action for there would be. The decision is whether we need that cash or actually I can create a forecast manual forecast item set. I'm actually going to roll that over or partially roll that over or something.
Me: 100%. So. So this is just the first thing that we would ship because for the first versions it would still be that we ingest investments data for you. But then, of course, from this. Let's say you'd like to investigate this time deposit. What would you expect happening? Let's say if you click this line here that says time deposit number one. What would. What would you like to see in our app?
Them: A summary. Personally, I'd like to see just a summary of that investment. So which bank rate maturity currency you want to see? Kind of like the key aspect of, like, key aspect of that, you know, ideal world. If you could create like an attachment, like the actual ticket that you receive the document from the bank as well. So it all aligns in. So you have everything there at the same time. That would also be great from, like, a. Just a general bookkeeping perspective.
Me: That's a very good point. But at a high level. If this was our V0, how to include investment? Increased visibility of investments into the platform, not just in the reporting parts. Would this be valuable to you?
Them: Yeah, absolutely. As I say, like the, the, the high level summary of just where everything is, is always a good check just from a sense check, I guess. Like, how much cash do we have on hand? Basically, I. I would always work within kind of. Buffer zones and have a good idea, like where our cash is going to be. And that that top banner is really helpful to this. Like I said to check against that, to say, okay, that looks about right. Or actually, I need to take some action. Things like we've got too much cash on hand at the moment that you know, that generally isn't the general rule of how much cash we should be holding, that, that kind of thing. And then that further, the forecasting sheet that actual, the change up in there, in terms of actually the split between cash and investments is, is a really helpful one. I think that that's really the big one for me. Is knowing when you're due to the overdrawn or actually when. Like having not just within over the next week or next two weeks, you were able to see over the next month. If our forecast generates us as we expected to, you're going to have excess cash, or quite a bit of excess cash next month. So what. What essentially that gives is some security and some comfort that you can probably invest for a longer period of time than you've done in the past. At the moment, we tend to look a bit short term because we don't have that future view on where our transactions go, where our balances are. Going to go. But this essentially helps maybe in the future when forward look the forward. The yield curve is in a positive position that actually, you know what? We shouldn't be investing for one month. Or maybe money market funds aren't the preferred investment. We can say, no, we should invest two or three months because we're comfortable with how much cash we're going to have. This is really that unlocks that, that decision.
Me: Yeah. I love that. Giving you confidence to basically lock cash in for a bit longer and increase.
Them: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that's, again, that's one of the selling points of the tool, you know, for me internally is that it takes those kind of decisions from a bit of guesswork and making overly conservative decisions. So actually being able to make more informed decision decisions with comfort and confidence. So, yeah, definitely.
Me: 100. Thank you. Let's move forward with this. I know there's a lot of other things on the agenda. So this was super valuable. Now I feel like we have high level validated that we're going in right direction. Thank you.
Them: Awesome. I think the other thing was like. Tom, you mentioned having a kind of a breakdown on your investments of investment types in that header card. Emma didn't go. I think the table that's under it has that, actually. Would that be. That would be a fine thing, or do you think it just still needs to. Yeah, no, I think so, yeah. I always have to think about like that. That is, I guess, from my side as well. I mean, at the moment, everything in my own reporting is like a jumbled message type of thing coming from the same data point. But I do need to get in the habit of thinking. Actually, no, if we need to, if we're reporting on this, we can create a separate report for all this data as well, so. Yeah, to your point, Gurjit? Yeah, I think that'll be fine. With having those two banners like that.
Me: Cool. Thank you.
Them: Can I please S two super quick follow up so you know in us for the start of the investment. Is there a world where if you could tag money market funds as, say, operational or available cash, you could up your investments and be even more strategic? If you could almost see it like term deposits versus instantly or same day liquidity cash. Could that be? Yes, even. You could flex the chart even to say this is actually available, and then you could really max out your interest. That would be. Yeah, maybe that would be. That's actually there. That's a good point to say. Maybe if we talk about that forecast chart to say we have investments and cash. If there's maybe even a separate one to say like, like an overnight interest bearing account or a money market fund or essentially immediate liquidity, it's a bit of a gray area because not depending on the money market fund you're investing in, it's not necessarily immediate. So you would have to kind of tag it in that way when you set it up. I guess maybe that. That would be something to keep in mind, like administratively, but. Yeah, maybe if there was ever a split that we could see where you have cash. Yeah. T plus zero liquidity and then everything else that would. That might be a good suggestion.
Me: That's a really cool idea. And we're on what feels. So when you get to set up and fully manage your investments, then some sort of way to indicate how liquid it is. Essentially we'll invent something there that lets you do that would be super cool.
Them: And then. So my last one is, would you, based on that view, would you ever use that for a scenario plan? Like, would you ever look and say, oh, I'm going to. Looking at what? Where we are now. I know I can put in 10 million here, 10 million here, 10 million here,. And then you can almost. Review that every month and see the format. I think that graph does achieve that, and I think that could be a really nice win. That's the first time we'd be able to do this in that because you could see the crossover between the investment in the cash. And then. Yeah, that's not really. No, that would make a lot of sense if there was an extension, but as you say, like a scenario panno to say. Okay. In February, invest X amount with Deutsche Bank, X amount with. Oh, and then in whatever, in mid May, in mid February, we have payroll. So we actually need to make sure we have this, this amount available to us from money market funds or something like that. And you could essentially plan maybe at the beginning that would be the ideal. Situation right at the moment. We kind of do that on a recurring basis, on a rolling basis. Say, this is. This is what I'm going to do with my cash. But if we were able to say that we have this beginning of the month plan, scenario based, and this is the investment activity that we're expecting to take and then be able to convert back to that, that would be great. I guess it kind of links in a little bit to what we discussed around that cash position. Sheet as well, where you. Where you were able to essentially look at your balances. Where they're at and leave comments almost within there to say this is what I plan to do with this excess balance or fund this account with this deposit maturity in February. I guess it's somewhat similar the way I'm thinking, but a full scenario plan like that, if you could lock that in and have that as, like, a reference point throughout the month would be be great. Love that. 's really you can just do it for you, right? I guess the. The final bit with if you could, say, create my scenario plan and it spit out suggestions, I mean, that would be. Email me if I need to log in at any point in the month. Right. So we have so much stuff to come. Do we want to drill more into investment data or shall we move on to the. The sort of. The open action items that we've got? And yeah, I love to talk about connectivity real quick because I do got to hop in 15 minutes and just talk through that really quickly. And have a bit of a game plan around. How do we get this, the rest of the data into Palm? Right. So Tom, I chatted with the team beforehand. I know that we have some of the accounts that are feeding automatically, things that HSPC and some of the stuff from workday. You have a handful of banks. And bank accounts that are not reporting at all, anywhere into Persona. And it's all pretty manual. Right. And that's where you're downloading and pushing the same instruments across. I think we have a quite a few options, actually, on how do we address this. There's like, we thought about it from a short term perspective, long term perspective, ease of implementation versus hey, maybe more complicated, but a little bit more robust. I think question for me was overall, in terms of how quickly are you looking for this? It sounds like it was relatively quick. Like in the near term you'd want to kind of get the visibility. And if I'M not mistaken, right? Yeah, I think I would like. It doesn't have to be in a super short term. I think I just like land on what that process looks like. Even if we, if it's something we work towards in the next couple of months. The, the challenge for me is not necessarily in the cash positioning the accounts that we're looking at. The reason they're not integrated, because the transactional flows are relatively minor. But some of those, in terms of volume, but the movements can be quite big. So we're talking like our money market funds or things like that. I want to be able to see those, those movements within the file. One from a. I guess it links into what we discussed on the investment side is it's helpful to know where my cash is, but it's also when we're looking a little bit deeper at the reporting side. Exactly. And we have all of our cash kind of lining up, essentially getting to a one to one with workday that's where it becomes a bit more important. And I appreciate that lack of integration is something that is accepted and the accounting side. But for me, it would just be helpful to see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ultimately, like, if you're reporting cash globally, you want to report all classical. Do not hey, cash that I manage, but everything else you figure out on your own. Right? So I think super clear, and I'll say long term, we absolutely are going to invest into straight bank to bank connectivity and technically we can already start doing some of that work, but that's going to require a bit more planning and it'll take work on your end of connecting us to banks and blah, blah, blah, so, like. Long term we're going to get there. I think in the short term the, the best, I think opportunity I see across looking at the banks that you have take away Blackrock for now is they all do have automated email reports that you can create. I know DVD City does Credit Suisse does it. Credit Suisse doesn't add db the portal that we use. Yeah, Autobahn, whatever that was called. Bank line, which is like they cheap knockoff version. So it is on us a little bit. Citibank does. I know JPMorgan does. Actually JP Morgan were in the middle of an integration into workday now, so very soon hopefully. Well, at least by March I would expect. We should be able to do the same as we're doing for Uni Credit, the. The More and Citibank. Yeah, I'm conscious of that one. It's just. Even the process of just sending across the file at the moment is. Is not like it's not doable. I guess the process at month end. So the banking data that we see for those non integrated accounts is usually available on day five, day six. If I'm, if I'm to send that across to you from workday, like what is kind of the turnaround time for having that, those, those, those transactions reflected in the system, just, just from a, I guess, month to month perspective, like looking at the reporting and stuff like that. I agree that there's other banks that we can. Hopefully things will, over time we'll get into a better situation, but short term. So just to line up with that switch of processes, that's what I'm. Yeah, I think in terms of just digesting it, it's the same as anything else. Right. So if you receive it within a few minutes or so, you'll. You'll see it in palm. I think the challenge there is for you and just operationally getting this statement five days after the month's close. How much value are you really getting out of that? Right? You kind of want to see this daily. If not. Yeah, for sure. The daily thing. Yeah, I don't know if that's necessarily going to be a problem. The result in, in the short term, unfortunately, I think the bigger, like out of all of the accounts that are the ones that I'd be most, most challenging, actually want to reflect more in the system would be the black. Box accounts because those have movements and they're pretty significant from a. Yeah. Yeah. So the black one, I think there's. There are some workarounds we should be able to do because you get trade confirms. Right. Every time you invest or you redeem. Right. I think from us, hypothetically, we can start with. A starting balance. And every time you have a trade confirm, a redemption or an investment, if that's sent to us, we can then start doing that calculation and pushing that into into palm, I would imagine. Right? So you're starting balance is 10 million. You invest another 10, we get that trade ticket, we add 10 million. Investment as the transaction, and the balance is now 20 million, for example. Got it. Okay, maybe that's relatively easy Solution then is I can just add the Palm, whatever Palm email address to the. The distribution of that notification. I'd love to explore that. That's an option. Of course. We got to kind of check if how quickly we could get that spun up. I think if blackrock's the most important, then that's the one that I think, again, this automation we should be able to build. I'm still kind of thinking through what are our options for the other bank ones? Because even bank, if they're, if they're, if they're on a different platform, then I even wonder if, like, host to host connectivity that we should be able to do is even available. Because if they're at the different part of the bank or a different system of the bank. And it's not like the premium ones that we're all used to. We might have to even think about something like open banking, potentially, as I think the, the, the goal at some point would be to have all of these banks integrated into workday, so all of the primary banking partners reporting in there. And that would, then I guess they would also always be the solution that we have the existing one that we have with with UniCredit not to create. I think they would not should there be much appetite to create integrations going kind of both ways. Probably want to born to ERP first and then push out to palm. Maybe. Let me have a think about it. I know, as I say, the JPM is, is in progress and it has been for a while. It's actually quite close to finalizing that integration. Citibank that I'm definitely aware that that can we can kick that one off and then if there's a solution potentially there with jpm. Sorry, no, we've blanked. Yeah, yeah. If we can automate those three and then we've got the majority of the banks actually in there. The transaction activity on Deutsche bank and Credit Suisse is so minor. At the moment that I haven't considerations as to whether we even need those. I think we kind of touched on it last year Jenn around somewhat sort of account rationalization and those were probably the two that are most that have my own the most let's say. And that might be a very a quick solution, you know, that might actually solve things for us. Very good. Okay, so I think then it's. I feel pretty clear about this. I don't know if Giannis your take on this, but I think we can explore that. The BlackRock thing for sure. You're moving forward with JPMorgan to Workday that kind of gets brought in once that's live for you. Then that leaves Credit Suisse and Deutsche bank as not super important anyway critical might be fall off anyway. So yeah, for us it's focusing on the BlackRock solution is can we leverage either trade conference or some sort of reporting to bring that into Palm automatically? It doesn't require you to forward or send anything. That would be great. If you have any examples of those threat confirms that you can send over, that would be great. So I can talk with the engineering team. Sure. Make a note of that. For sure. Perfect. Yeah, that'd be cool, because it didn't potentially the question you had around having the ticket also in palm, like a screenshot or whatever PDF of it. Could if we're already receiving those confirms. Yep. Yeah, true. Try not to over promise here. I'm just saying, I think having them gives us opportunity to use them. Very good. That's it for me, then. I think I feel pretty clear about this. Over. Back to you guys. Thanks, gujit. Emma, can you please. Do we. Tom, do you have a few minutes to run over if we go through your list? Is that okay? Yeah. And posted some actions in our chat about extra more specific account and forecast items that would just make the platform more more useful. So it'll be good to run through those and just to make sure that we've got all of them. On our to do list already. I think most of them we do, but it would just be good to hear them from you, especially on the at the payroll forecasting accuracies and stuff I think we've talked about before. But it'll be good to sort of do it with Emma Hej. Sorry. I'm just going to. I just downloaded something. Trade confirmation, probably speaking. I'll send another one. Okay. Yeah. So maybe on I can take the loop in and just share this. I'm happy to walk through the first. So, yeah, the first one is the. The payroll forecast in the 5, 7, 4, 3. So what is a challenge at the moment is, I think, again, I think we've probably touched on this before, so I'm just getting things a little bit to see. Is when I look at the payroll forecast. I see. Sorry. Can you see that okay? Are there any good? Yeah, we can see. It. Okay, great. The payroll forecast is at the moment is showing kind of significant almost weekly payouts, or at least it was. Oh, hang on. I think there may have been an update. I went to your dashboard and I think it's guito seasonality effect. Let me open my dashboard as well. This was looking slightly different yesterday. But at least what I would say is that. The, the values, like the significant values in salary and tax, like, seeing these every, every kind of every week is not necessarily correct. When I look at other accounts, like we have payroll from our UK accounts, it's really standard. You see it in the second to last week or last week every month, kind of forecasted with a with a really consistent value. Whereas in this account I'm sure it's something to do with historic categorization. But it creates a bit of a challenge not not seeing like not having that there just always looks very very busy where payroll we do have certain payroll payments like payable other which would be Social Security, health care, that kind of thing that. That can go out most weeks. But salary and taxes is. Is generally doesn't look like that. It doesn't reflect like that. And I'm just maybe a bit of a deep dive into what is generating. But if we, if there's any, we can see what's generating those to identify what's been categorized, I guess. What's causing those. And also you can see from previous months the actual values that we're looking at for salary. Are much, much higher than in the forecast values that we have in the future. So like January for February and March, I think that they're down at like the 3,4 million, whereas in previous months it's the actuals are like 8,9 at times. And from a funding perspective, that's obviously something we need to focus on. Yeah, agreed. And I know we've seen improvements in how the forecasts were allocated. Sometimes they were divided over weeks for the month instead of being allocated to a date. I think that has definitely improved for some of the changes that have gone live, but I think this specific line item. We can look into. Well, we can ask Pam Chat as well to help. Yeah, that would just be helpful. Like, I'm sure it's something that is. I know the forecast. If I recall, it's, like, built out over a longer period of time and it is given, like, weighting over that period right in. Terms of more recent is so that I would expect as things get more accurate on the categorization, the more recent, hopefully that you continue to see that that reflect. But it'd be good to know from like the last six months or whatever that period is, what exactly is is driving that, because if we can resolve that maybe it's a very quick update. I was in the. It's in the system yesterday making some updates. Like recategorizations and going through that. But if there's anything specifically for these lines, it would be helpful to know. Oh, that is good because, yes, that'll have an impact of the forecast for each week is generated on a Monday evening. So you might see the impact of that next week. So that would be quite interesting looking. Giannis has got the forecast versus forecast. We can maybe do that comparison to. Okay, awesome. And then, yeah, the next part on the list, which I know we've covered, but we'll see. Well, Emma C. Is obviously the cash sweep to have that as a manually calculated field in the forecast. It's at the moment this account balance is not reflective. Yeah. So what we have in this one?